tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post5914131300367898286..comments2023-06-26T11:28:06.765-04:00Comments on Fluster Cucked: 40 Years of Lawyer Overproduction, a Data Table, and 2 ChartsFrank the Underemployed Professionalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00461791753886733576noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-17172039630431126272013-04-11T07:07:29.288-04:002013-04-11T07:07:29.288-04:00I tried to use the same reasoning as the author an...I tried to use the same reasoning as the author and found out I was wrong to use statistics that way. You can't compare new lawyers to overall population. You have to compare ALL lawyers to overall population.<br /><br />See here: http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=43687#post621585JeffMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03570176730771111002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-27680868191127644662011-01-10T09:24:06.505-05:002011-01-10T09:24:06.505-05:00I wanted to add that you should do a chart that sh...I wanted to add that you should do a chart that shows how the cost of law school has gone up and the amount of debt needed to pay for it since 1983, or any other date you choose.<br /><br />I also neglected to mention that in 1983, there were jobs to be had that you could support yourself on, even selling shoes. And people were hiring for jobs, though as I said, the economy was in a recession then as well.<br /><br />A third point, when I went to law school it was the first time the class had been half women. When I graduated, companies were under government pressure to show they had women in highly paid, managerial positions. Hiring women lawyers was one of the fastest ways to improve their standing. <br /><br />Finally, many companies then had the idea of building a great in-house law firm instead of using outside lawyers all the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-83660953979097211662011-01-10T09:01:27.330-05:002011-01-10T09:01:27.330-05:00I graduated from Law School at the University of D...I graduated from Law School at the University of Denver in 1983. The economy was terrible then,particularly in boom or bust states, but not as bad as now. When I was a first year, I bought running shoes from a guy who had just graduated from law school in Kansas and moved to Denver to live with his wife's family and look for work in the "big city." One of my friend's husbands went to Harvard Law but decided to move out west for the "quality of life." I recall being one of a few people who had job offers after my second year. I ended up being moved to New York City by Mobil Oil Company. I moved from there to an associate at a big law firm. Many of my friends struggled for years to get careers going. Many of them never made it, I was lucky. <br /><br />The big difference was that my law school tuition, which I worked to pay for while in school, was about $8,000 or so a year - less with scholarships. <br /><br />My student loan payment was less than $300 a month. (I went to a local state university and lived at home so I wouldn't incur debt because I knew I wanted to go to graduate school.)<br /><br />Honestly, I was so financially conservative and worried about debt - because my parents, products of the depression, had no money to help me out- I don't think I would have gone to law school if the price tag meant I had to accumulate a staggering amount of debt.<br /><br />Also, I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and never really thought about making staggering amounts of money. We had just been through a serious recession and oil crises. People where I lived didn't have access to, or real knowledge of, big law. I didn't even know about big firms until I was moved to New York.<br /><br />I would never let my son go to law school unless we worked out a way to pay for it in cash and scholarships. No one should take on $200,000 in debt they can't walk away from if things don't work out right.<br /><br />I didn't realize how bad life was for many law students until I read some of these scam blogs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-21339342068402431242010-07-20T16:29:30.414-04:002010-07-20T16:29:30.414-04:00Your stats are impressive!Your stats are impressive!Cryn Johannsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08452412213997621242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-66836826401994293512010-07-10T20:50:23.953-04:002010-07-10T20:50:23.953-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Frank the Underemployed Professionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00461791753886733576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-429898137418329792010-07-10T20:50:22.716-04:002010-07-10T20:50:22.716-04:00I'm sure that the average income statistic con...I'm sure that the average income statistic conveniently or perhaps naively only counts lawyers who work in the field and not unemployed and underemployed lawyers. Those types of career summary pages are normally worthless wastes of space written by laymen who know nothing about the field they're describing.<br /><br />Nice find with the 759,200 stat.<br /><br /><i>"Lawyers held about 759,200 jobs in 2008."</i><br /><br />It doesn't say what kinds of jobs or if they were legal jobs. If you take the data and add up the number of JDs produced in the 40 years from 1969 to 2008, then 1,412,328 lawyers should be in the job market, assuming that a lawyer would want to work for 40 years on average. According to the ABA licensure stats for 2008, there were 1,162,124 "resident and active attorneys".<br /><br />I think I'll make a blog post to hash out some data from those numbers.Frank the Underemployed Professionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00461791753886733576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-45486580329109444992010-07-10T14:30:06.837-04:002010-07-10T14:30:06.837-04:00I hope you and Nando jump on this: http://www.bls....I hope you and Nando jump on this: http://www.bls.gov/k12/law02.htm, look at what it says: "How much does this job pay? Back to Top <br /><br />Lawyers are some of the highest paid workers. Although some lawyers work for themselves, many other lawyers work for governments, law firms, and corporations. In May 2008, the average yearly wages for lawyers were $124,750. <br /><br />How many jobs are there? Back to Top <br /><br />Lawyers held about 759,200 jobs in 2008. Most lawyers worked for themselves or in law firms. Some lawyers worked for other businesses or for government." I wanted to smack the screen when I say this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6764887698191008891.post-70556313096037215782010-07-05T19:18:22.466-04:002010-07-05T19:18:22.466-04:00While lawyers per capita certainly is a useful sta...While lawyers per capita certainly is a useful stat, it's not the full picture of lawyer job market sustainability. Increases in government regulation mean more lawyers, both in the government, and in private practice either at firms or in house. Basically, they create more demand for lawyers.<br /><br />What I find more interesting about this is that government regulations or not, most of what lawyers do does not build the economy. Doing work on contracts arguably helps build the economy (as much as the underlying deal does), but regulatory work does not, law suits do not, wills do not.<br /><br />The increase in lawyers per capita shows that we have a lot of highly paid people who don't contribute to the economy. That's a recipe for economic disaster. I bet if you looked at the number of HR personnel and middle managers, you'd see a similar increase.BL1Yhttp://bl1y.comnoreply@blogger.com